Talk:Main Page

With the great deal of affection I have for this game, I've decided that, if maintaining the Miraheze site is a procedure that requires DIY elements, I might as well be the one to get things going.

Thus, I am initiating a Discussion page in the hopes that we can start a wheel turning that will become an active procedure of interaction with each other and - possibly - the individuals who submit, and have submitted, storylines and modules for publication in the first place, and also Steve Kenson and Dan Houser, the gentlemen who inspired the game itself and the site we now involve ourselves in sustaining.

In addition to general ongoing dialogues, my hope is that we can begin differentiating forums for specific discussion purposes, including - big hope - the submission of fan-created adventures and/or characters that may end up populating each others' games, and - who knows? - possibly end up seeing publication in a hard-copy work at some point in future developments.

Right now, my first suggestion for differentiated forums would include a "General Discussion" tab, as well as a "Stark City" one where reactions, suggestions, and who-woulda-thunk-it stories can be traded back and forth. Other forums, of course, will inevitably arise out of continued discussion. Other forums possibly arranged around consideration of the other various supplemental works could be a point of division as well.

One thing I would suggest is that, in line with many other gaming sites' policy, we dispense with real-world political discussion; too much opportunity for offense arising over something that has absolute zero to do with ICONS, along with attracting inappropriately aligned personalities and driving away some good ones. Other than that, I'm very much hoping to see as many of the old site's gang reappearing here as possible, and continuing on our goal of seeing this excellent game given over to the public's hands and seeing what commentary we can make, fun stories we can tell, and adventures we can have.

Black Talon

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''Hi Black Talon! I don't know if using the wiki as a forum is that efficient, but if anyone wants to do it, go right ahead. Seems there are actual forums for ICONS out there (someone put up links if you have them) and this wiki certainly functions well as a repository of useful games material and other results of such forums, but again: whatever works!''

''As far as leaving out real-world politics, I don't think that was a problem before, so I hope there will be no need to make a rule now.

Blue Lightning

Thank you for resurrecting ICONS page
I'm working on some Marvel and DC conversions that I hope to upload soon. Hopefully we can get some more activity here to keep this resource viable.

Thanks so much for saving it.

Jaysin1414

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Thanks for contributing!

Blue Lightning

Icons's Key Strengths
First, thank you Black Talon and so many others for keeping this great resource for fans alive. I was 50-50 on Icons when I first bought it some time in 2012 or so, but really embraced and loved the game after Icons: The Assembled Edition came out. The original Icons wikispaces was a great resource for character ideas and conversions for my favorite characters.

Which brings me to the discussion point, which is Icons' key strengths over other games that I previously played, some of which for over 20 years (Champions, DC Heroes, Villains & Vigilantes, Supers, Prowlers & Paragons, Silver Age Sentinels, Heroes Unlimited, Guardians, Invulnerable, etc.).

Strength #1 - Statistics. I really like how the statistics in Icons cover the main things in a character while not overloading the player or GM. Champions (5th Edition and earlier) and DC Heroes were heavily reliant on the DEX characteristic which combined manual coordination and agility together. By contrast, Icons breaks it up into Prowess and Coordination which conceptually makes more sense to me, since there are plenty of regular or superhero characters that have great natural hand-eye coordination for weapons and attacks, but not necessarily be that agile in terms of avoiding harm through dodging or acrobatic maneuvers.

Strength #2 - Rules simplicity. Well, that's a given, isn't it? As a comparison, Hero System 6th Edition now has 600+ pages of rules. Yes, there's Hero Basic that is less than 200, but the core system is over 600 pages. I've been playing Hero System/Champions since the late 1980s and 600+ pages of rules does not seem like the best approach to retain current fans or attract new ones to the game system.

I've ran Icons at multiple game conventions and have had great success in bringing in brand new players who have never role-played before pick up and understand the rules in a few minutes and absolutely love the game system. It was extremely difficult to perform a similar feat with Champions, and even then, the various rules and textbook-like approach was a major turnoff.

Strength #3 - Product Style and Substance. I really admire Dan Houser's art style that is reminiscent of Bruce Timm which sets the tone for the Icons game. It also helps that he's illustrated most, if not all, of the Icons products to establish a high level of quality continuity that is often lacking across the different superhero games I've played. The printing of the hard and soft cover books have been first rate.

Your thoughts? - Fdw3773

ICONS' Key Strengths, cont.

Fdw3773, Good to see you making the transition over from the M&M boards. Do agree with pretty much everything you've indicated above, but one additional point I'd like to throw in for thought: Stamina calculation. While ICONS owes as much, obviously, to the old Marvel Superheroes game as anything else, one thing I throw the fist of approval up for is not having Fighting/Agility/Strength/Endurance (i.e., the pure physical angle) as the whole of establishing damage capacity; rather, having Strength and an intellectual attribute - Willpower - in combination opens up the diversity possibilities a bit. Sure, easy enough to have your Solomon Grundy-type who's a major mobile physical blockade - he ain't heavy on Willpower, but this can be compensated for with a couple of levels of Invulnerability/Absorption/What-have-you. This also levels the teeter-totter somewhat for heroes who aren't comparatively Strength-heavy (say 3-4 for your Mr. Fantastic to Daredevil types), but can manage to pull themselves along after taking hits that would disable ordinary humans, just because they refuse to quit and keep pushing things.

Have got more to state later, and hoping that we can open up other topics of discussion as well, but again, great to see people active on this resurrected site, and looking forward to more insights and batting the conversation ball back and forth.

Black Talon

ICONS Fan Fiction?
My first interest has been storytelling, which is probably why I started role-playing games as early as elementary school with Villains & Vigilantes (my older brother had to coach me up on the math involved). Creating heroes, villains, and the story lines featuring them was a great hobby that I continue today.

With that in mind, is there an interest to have a fan fiction section on this Wiki? There would have to be some basic guidelines (e.g. PG-rated) and the stories would have to be consistent with the characters featured in ICONS (e.g. Miss Tikal would not go on a psychotic killing spree). I read some of the various hero and villain background files and based on how some of the adventures played out during my game sessions, they generated some fan fiction ideas to add more character depth and for just general entertainment.

Your thoughts? - Fdw3773

ICONS Fan Fiction, con't
Fdw3773, once again have to pass on admiration and congratulations for your thoughts with this; fan-fiction material for ICONS could be a wonderful attraction force for the frustrated "I wanna tell a superhero story" crowd, and I can stick my hand up as one of said crowd in this respect. ICONS has got a ready-to-go setting in Stark City, in which stories could extend from the city's origins up to present day. One thing I would advise, were we to begin online publication of such work, is that we perhaps take a cue from - and I know this isn't the first time I've used this example - City of Heroes. Subscribers to the game could get their own short-story fan-fiction work submitted for consideration and published, and some of those stories fell under the Just Plain Damned Good category, but one point is that they, as a matter of course, eschewed using core established characters, and instead utilized individuals that the writers had either adopted from their own in-game creations or made up whole-cloth for the story. Therefore, I'd advocate that such stories leave All-Star, All-American Girl, Saguaro, Hangman, Miss Tikal and the like as background figures perhaps mentioned, but left out of the actual narrative progression. Another, more practical consideration is word-count; I'd figure that putting matters at the 1,000-1,500 word limit, at least to start, might be a beginning point for a discussion on this. Of course, individual authors could end up doing work as a serial submission, and again, I wouldn't see a problem in this as long as individual word-count per chapter was kept within guidelines.

Otherwise, again, I have to extend the flag of admiration for this suggestion. One final point: To quote Gary Gygax, "Books are books; games are games." The best City of Heroes stories that I recall left the actual game mechanics in the background and concentrated on using settings and character situations to create drama - such points often created conditions in stories that could rarely or never have occurred in the game. Now, I know we're dealing with a pen-and-paper RPG as opposed to an algorithm-based MMPOG, and this creates a world of difference with regard to how stories work and the possibilities offered, but I still advocate pushing for story value over replicating game functionality. I realize this is all a pretty obvious advisement, but just to make a point clear. In any case, I've got a couple of stories on tap - and which I've been itching to tell outside of my own head for a very long time - so we should perhaps see about getting a separate forum going for such work.

Thank you again, Fdw3773.

Black Talon

ICONS Fan Fiction Forum
Glad to hear that there are other fans who like this ideas, Black Talon. Your guidelines are excellent and having the core universe characters in the background instead of the foreground make sense for fan fiction stories.

I'm open to your idea of having a page featuring fan fiction. It could perhaps dovetail with the Settings section as a way to add more depth through context. - Fdw3773

Fan Fiction or Story Hour?
Doc Lemming aka Kipling aka John McMullen

Do we want to make it a requirement that any ICONS stories in a Fan Fiction section take place in some isotope of the ICONS implied universe? Or is it just a place for fiction, albeit one that has rules about presenting the ICONic characters?

re: Fan Fiction or Story Hour?
My recommendation is that it needs to have some type of connection with the ICONS universe. It could feature ICONS characters to give a little more depth or backstory about them, or simply take place in that universe (e.g. Stark City) and the ICONS characters are mentioned in the periphery as Black Talon suggested.

- Fdw3773

Fan Fiction or Story Hour? And On...
Since it appears that we've once again got The Ticking Clock counting down the hours before the site vanishes into that proverbial Google-induced black hole (yeah, they've got a picture of it now - you seent it?...is it big enough to swallow the Earth? Maybe...but this site would be a definite casualty, and we don't want that), it's time to get some discussion moving back and forth on this here forum.

Continuing on with what Fdw3773 stated, I'd have to issue pretty serious blanket agreement. I think Stark City is a flat-out excellent story-telling spot, at least as a start-up point; perhaps other locations can be introduced in particular stories, and points of focus expanded from there. A good example, in my opinion, is in the Invincible comic series - that Midnight City setting shows up on a very occasional basis, but I can see how a really compelling individual story, or series, could be built up in such a place: it has a background and origin vastly different from other settings, a story-telling "ecology" that is a pretty solid 90-degree turn from your standard Metropolis/(Marvel)New York City/Gotham City et al superhero locale. However, getting back to the main point, I do think that using Stark City as a sort of jump-off point would be well advised, to create a link with ICONS as a game proper.

Another issue - and I'm quite serious about this - is that the questions about powers, power levels, and various game points stay in the background as much as possible. Game mechanics are interesting only when you're actually playing the game. To introduce such in a literary setting is to drag the reader into something that he or she has absolutely no possibility of influencing or participating in...and thus compels no interest. Having a general indication of "Dude X has got super-strength and flight - he's a bit stronger than Dude Y, but that's as detailed as we're going to get on this. Why?  Because going in to a serious game mechanics discussion in a story-telling situation is boring." And would remain such unless, possibly, the game-mechanics issue itself was made a point of conflict...in which case the game-mechanics are a proxy through which the story-telling moves forward anyway.

I am very, very much interested in telling an ICONS story, using original characters and employing the Stark City setting - I'm currently involved in another project at current, but will hopefully be able to initiate such in the not too distant future. In the meantime, wonderful to see people contributing to this place, hoping to keep things moving forward and upward, that we'll see more ICONS material released over the coming calendar year; and that, maybe, one day, we can get Mr. Kenson and/or Mr. Houser, or any of the other game/module-creation crew, to put in an appearance here and contribute a bit to a discussion.

Be in contact soon. In the meantime, crush evil wherever it appears...and help that old lady across the street.

Black Talon

Fan Fiction entry
I created my first fan fiction entry in the Settings section. It seemed appropriate as a way to add depth to the overall ICONS setting. Hope that you like it! - Fdw3773, June 13, 2019

Please Include Dates
''Hi guys, I'm glad everyone's remembering to sign their additions here on discussion pages, but I think it would help in making sense of this page and conversations if you add the date after your name. I'm going to look into ways that may already exist for this to happen automatically, but till then let's try doing that ourselves.''

Blue Lightning 06/14/2019 12:27AM

''AHA! Looks like there is a "Signature button" you can use on the discussion pages that will put in the timestamp also! It's at the top right after the Bold and Italic buttons and before the link button. --Blue Lightning (talk) 09:22, 14 June 2019 (EDT)''

Re: Time Stamps
Time stamps?!? We don't need no stinking time stamps! You're talking like this is an actual forum or something, where people discuss stuff, and points of debate might get brought in -

Okay, yeah, I get the idea. Now to see if we can futz with the signature thing and use it to put funny and/or derisive material on that lets everybody know that, whether we get tagged as geeks and nerds or not, we understand where our influence begins and ends.

Again, hoping that we can keep this game and site active. See everybody on soon. --Black Talon (talk) 15:31, 14 June 2019 (EDT)

Rogues: New ICONS publication
Just as a quick update: Steve Kenson's site has announced a new ICONS resource that is available for order, specifically the Rogues supplement, providing more bad guys and/or supporting characters and cast for a game setting. Hoping to be able to get this in hardcover in the very near future, and looking forward to seeing more ICONS work becoming available over the balance of the year.--Black Talon (talk) 23:18, 23 June 2019 (EDT)

Just keepin' stuff going
Been a while since there's been activity of note here, so just popping in to ensure that the site remains ongoing.

With regard to personal circumstances, there's recently been an uptick in terms of resources, so I'm hoping very much to be able to start catching up on the ICONS modules/sourcebooks in the near future. Otherwise, hoping matters are going well for everyone, and also hoping that, at some point, we can get Messers Kenson and/or Houser, etc., to show up in Toronto for a convention or such. Looking forward to more game releases over the remainder of the year, and anticipating 2020's works.

--Black Talon (talk) 10:20, 1 September 2019 (EDT)--

If you click on Recent Changes in the left column, you see anything that's happened here lately, and it seems Fdw3773 and Doc Lemming have continued adding content.

So which conventions are in Toronto? --Blue Lightning (talk) 01:35, 2 September 2019 (EDT)

What's Happened to Mutants & Masterminds?
This is probably the wrong place to even bring this subject up, but it's the only one, from my perspective, that has any connection to the issue at hand.

I am aware that the M&M main page had undergone some changes over the last several months; fine, M&M second edition is a topic of considerable interest and affection for me, third edition markedly less so, but going to the site, over the last several days, has shown only a "register.com" page with "Best Action Games, Top Rated Action Games, 10 Best 3D Games, Brain Teasing Games, Top MMORPG Games, Most Popular RPGs, 10 Recommended Games" listed below that. Clicking on any of these does not come anywhere close to the M&M site. So, inquiring: Has Green Ronin essentially shut down the M&M site, and/or the game as a whole? While I would have my share of regrets at such an event, my primary superhero RPG focus right now is ICONS, and that's the way I'm perfectly happy to let it stay. So, is anyone aware as to what the state of the M&Msite/game is at present, and why it seems to have undergone this shutdown?

All best to the gang, and looking forward to discussing Rogues and ICONS Presents soon.

--Black Talon (talk) 14:29, 9 November 2019 (EST)

Black Talon, I regret that I'm not tracking anything about M&M being potentially shut down. I just visited the Green Ronin website and all the books for Third Edition are available for sale. The Ronin Army discussion boards related to M&M are also active. As far as I know the latest publications are the M&M Basic Handbook and Superteam Handbook that were published within the past year for M&M Third Edition.

M&M seems healthy to me and is faring much, much better than Hero Games. --FDW3773, 11 November 2019

FDW3773, thank you for the reply. I did a search not long after I'd made the post, and found the M&M forum site - duh. However, as I discovered, the ICONS forum has disappeared, and this site seems to be the sole outlet for discussion among the game's fans - Steve Kenson's own site is mostly for his musings and announcements for things like ICONS Presents and so forth. So, if this is our remaining meeting point, let's try to make it a good one, and keep conversations moving forth. Hope to see others on soon. --Black Talon (talk) 09:03, 13 November 2019 (EST)

Notes following an ICONS Campaign
I recently concluded a six-month ICONS campaign where we met about once a month. Although the players started out in the Marvel Universe, adventure scenarios bounced between their home universe with Marvel characters, the DC Universe, and what I refer to as the Core Universe of ICONS involving supporting heroes from Patriot City. After actively playing it for an extended amount of time, there were some definite game design concerns that came up. Granted, I'm only using ICONS: The Assembled Edition and the concerns may have already been addressed in Origins or other publications.

First was character advancement. How much advancement was allowed after a certain number of issues/adventures completed remains vague to me. While this didn't matter when I ran demos at game conventions, this became a problem during the campaign since none of us were really sure how much of a character upgrade was valid before the game balance was significantly thrown off. By contrast, other superhero RPGs allocate points based on adventure success to be used to upgrade powers, abilities, etc. at a known rate so there was a pretty good idea of seeing how a character "leveled up" and was upgraded.

The second was power levels, which seemed limited when it capped off at 10. For example, there really wasn't much a distinction in Strength between She-Hulk, Thor, Colossus, the Thing, or even Superman which ranged between an 8 (She-Hulk, Thing), 9 (Thor, Colossus), and 10 (Superman) in terms of delivering damage, even though in the cartoons and comics there is a HUGE gap in Strength between those characters. It didn't really dawn on us until my wife's character got hit by a mind-controlled Superman and was still conscious, even though she was just a steampunk gadgeteer that was, "just bone and meat" with a force field. We both agreed after the game session was over, "There's no way Gearshot (my wife's character) could've taken a punch from Superman and still be conscious," but with Superman's Strength at 10, Gearshot's force field at 6, she would only take 4 Stamina damage and still generally be up. By contrast, in another superhero RPG, she would have been knocked out cold. --Fdw3773 (talk) 11:57, 16 November 2019 (EST)

Notes following, cont.

Fdw3773, this is something I get entirely, and this is one of the reasons that superhero RPGs have, for me, been a major range of hit-and-miss inside the game engines themselves. Games such as V&V 2E have got limitations with regard to the powers, plus dealing with the early '80s convention of levels, whatall. I honestly believe that it's a serious difficulty, if not damn near impossibility, to work over near-cosmic-level characters such as Superman, Thor, et al in any sort of manner that preserves character integrity and still keeps game engine balance. ICONS covers this - pretty darn well, in my opinion - through the use of Minimal, Moderate, Major and Maximum Success/Failure rolls. A character like Superman would need, I think, some Supes/Thor-Only Extras, like Devastating Impact and so forth, which would force the recipient to roll for Slam or Stun regardless of what the dice indicate. Avoiding this effect would require the expenditure of a Determination Point. Otherwise, Superman and other 9+ Strength-level characters are just handing out big-time hits that can be abraded with a variety of defensive powers. Now, that ain't a problem, as long as that's what the GM/Players are aiming for, but characters such as those discussed exist, I think, pretty much entirely inside their own story-telling dynamics and aren't really supported by translation to game engines. Want a Superman? Create an All-Star type character within the engine confines and try to work things out from there.

ICONS has, as I've noted previously, a greater range of flexibility with regard to character options, so forth, than a number of others I've seen. Regarding specific power levels, in this case Strength, the GM would probably need to work out what the character's specific limitations are - She-Hulk and the Thing may end up doing the same basic damage level per hit, but in terms of how much they can bench...well, that's up for the guy/girl running the game to determine. For myself, I'm pretty content to assign those two characters the same hit potential and still draw some differences in terms of how much they can lift/bench, if required. --Black Talon (talk) 13:30, 19 November 2019 (EST)

''I think in the very specific case of the Gearshot/Superman example there's an old "out" that a mind-controlled Superman is subconsciously never fully using his strength. "Devastating Impact" sounds like a great suggestion for using Superman-like characters in ICONS. I've always had a problem with exponential scale games which almost all standard supers games use because of the wide scale of superhero characters-- how does someone who's by definition 16 times as strong as your defense only do 2 points on you when they could drop a house on you? But I've long since decided that everyone else seems to be okay with it and not to bother trying to fix the issue myself until I'm actually running a game long-term. --Blue Lightning (talk) 08:50, 20 November 2019 (EST)''

House Rule for Assessing Damage
After reading up on some Champions and Prowlers & Paragons rules, a house rule that I'll be implementing is on damage assessment. When an attacker successfully hits a defender, the attacker rolls the number of D6 based on the level (e.g. Blast 5 would be 5D6) and the defender rolls the number of D6 based on the level of defense (e.g. Force Field 3 would be 3D6) to determine the number of successes. A roll of 2, 3, 4, or 5 would equal one success, a roll of 6 would equal two successes, and a roll of 1 would equal no success. The number of successes are then totaled for the attacker and defender. The damage assessed would be the difference between the attacker and the defender. If the defender's number of successes exceed the attackers, no damage is assessed (stunning is still possible, depending on the attack).

For example, an attacker with a Strength of 8 successfully hits a defender that is wearing Armor level 4. The attacker rolls 8D6 and gets a 1, 2, 3, 4, 4, 6, 6, 6. This would equal a total of 10 successes. The defender rolls 4D6 and isn't so lucky, rolling a 1, 1, 2, 4 for only two successes. The defender gets rocked for a total of eight Stamina damage (10 minus 2) and rolls for being stunned next.

This would replicate how a defender can get lucky from a much more powerful attacker when a blast "just grazes him or her" and not take as much damage or how a weaker attacker is able to get that lucky shot in and hurt a much stronger defender.--Fdw3773 (talk) 16:49, 19 January 2020 (EST)

House Rule for Assessing Damage, cont.

Fdw3773, this is once again a point I can express some serious approval for, and which could get worked into a officially-unofficial ICONS release sometime in the future. The system noted brings up some recollections of West End Games' Star Wars game engine, which relied more on sheer volume of dice rather than any solid, predetermined outcome from "My Strength 7 guy can beat your Strength 6 guy, no problem." The common systems for superhero games that you noted previously tend to get pushed into a bit more of a normal distribution outcome, instead of leaping up the exponential ladder.

That said, I do have a real liking for the Minimal/Moderate/Major/Massive outcomes that the Core system embraces; gives the chance for severe success/failure, as long as the opponents are within at least reasonable proximity to one another's capabilities. Just thinking about it, it might be possible to do a best-of-both-worlds mix: take one system or the other in a given situation, depending on opposing power levels, single vrs. mass combat (James Bond scraps Emilio Largo as opposed to dozens of NATO commandos against SPECTRE low-lifes), group-against-single-Arch-Villain-adversary, and so on. Again, I think it's the flexibility of ICONS in the first place that allows for this kind of house-rule to be suggested and grafted on, and I'd argue that this forms the arrows and archway (sounds like an RPG title) leading toward the genre's future pathway. More and more, I think, we're going to see games moving away from the our-way-or-the-highway set of d20, where things became so strictured that there was no real possibility for the DM/GM/Narrator/What-have-you doing much more than figuring out what would be the most effective pre-published opponents for that night's game. Riding the line between a well-defined system of checks and balances and a free-form carnival will, I think, become the goal for game designers and Devs as we move into the second quarter of the twenty-first century.

--Black Talon (talk) 16:16, 24 January 2020 (EST)

New additions/Any requests?
I've recently added some character conversions in recent weeks: Mystery Inc. (Scooby Doo and the gang) along with starting on the Silverhawks. Although I've retired my ICONS campaign, I plan to still periodically do some character write-ups here and there from various animated series within and not too far beyond the superhero genre.

Are there any requests out there? G.I. Joe? Ghostbusters? Transformers? The Galaxy Rangers? --Fdw3773 (talk) 12:21, 1 February 2020 (EST)

'''New additions/Any requests? cont.'''

Fdw3773, thank you for the new inputs. Honestly, if I was to ask for anything in this regard, it'd be something more along the lines of the classic Image comics characters from the early '90s - WildC.A.T.s, CyberForce, Youngblood, Brigade and so forth. Those comics, and characters, seem to best encapsulate what I see ICONS going for as a game: the Timmiverse cartoon series that ran the razor's edge between childhood fun and joy in superhero action and adult consideration of power relating to power, power in conflict with power and speaking truth to power (season three of Justice League Unlimited as a template example). Certainly, no one is ever going to accuse the Jim Lee/Brandon Choi, Marc Silvestri/Eric Silvestri, Rob Liefeld era comics of hitting sustained notes such as Justice League Unlimited, but I still do take enormous enjoyment out of looking those series over today, especially such works as the WildC.A.T.s/CyberForce team-up work of Killer Instinct, and the four-issue intro of Brigade, which struck me as so straight-forward and to-the-point in terms of conflict that the scenario would, in fact, have been a damn good role-playing game situation construct. I believe that these characters, and the Image universe as a whole, serve as good opportunities for translation to ICONS stats and provide examples of how characters can ride the lines of effective comics-based story-telling and RPGing opportunities.

--Black Talon (talk) 19:50, 2 February 2020 (EST)

'''New additions/Any requests? cont., and cont. again'''

Fdw3773, one more thing to consider, perhaps, as I waste time before starting work. One additional series - that I've spent literal hours translating into ICONS terms - are the cast and crew from Invincible, which struck me pretty much from the get-go as a storyline that Robert Kirkman might well have utilized ICONS as an inspiration force. Any ideas on these particular characters? One point that I think would make things rather interesting is tracking Mark Grayson's evolution in terms of not just Abilities, but Powers, Power levels, Qualities and Specialties as well. Most of the other characters - Oliver notwithstanding, of course - are pretty much plug-and-play (although Debbie Grayson's loss and search for a new path in life after Nolan's...withdrawal, shall we say...could figure in as well). With a bit of time and effort, I certainly could actualize the concepts above, but wondering if you've got any ideas with regard to this landmark series.

--Black Talon (talk) 08:46, 12 February 2020 (EST)

Re: Invincible

Black Talon, while I've heard of Invincible and read some great articles about it, I really haven't collected superhero comics in over a decade due to various reasons (e.g. changing interests, reboot of a given comic universe fatigue, etc.). Any character and scenario ideas that I would generate for Invincible would be a huge disservice to you.

--Fdw3773 (talk) 12:21, 17 February 2020 (EST)

Re: Invincible, cont.

Well then! Thank you for the subject update; such being clear, I guess I'll take it upon meself to start doing character translations.

Having given it a bit of thought since the last post, one point that does come to mind, and makes Invincible an even better match for ICONS, is that many of the major individuals, while they don't alter physically to a notable degree, do change in terms of character, meaning Qualities. A prime example of which being Nolan "Omni-Man" Grayson, who, while he starts off being a duplicitous supposedly here-to-save-Truth-Justice-and-the-American-Way Paragon, ends up being revealed at the end of year one as a traitorous murderer with the goal of prepping the Earth for Viltrum Empire-takeover. By year three, his motives/Qualities have undergone a complete turnaround.

Although I'd really have to set some time aside to do a full examination of Mark "Invincible" Grayson from year one to year twelve, I'd set him out with something like this in issue #1:

PROWESS: 3 (at best, probably a 2 would be better)

COORDINATION: 3

STRENGTH: 8

INTELLECT: 3

AWARENESS: 3

WILLPOWER: 3 (maybe a 4, but only at the very end of year one)

Powers would be pretty much Flight 4 (again, probably) and Invulnerability 7. Anything else, as stated, I'm going to have to put some serious thought into before I post them in the correct forum.

So, any other people who might want to throw in some character conversions, go ahead. When I get the opportunity to start taking the Invincible series seriously from the ICONS perspective, I'll put the stats in the proper forum

--Black Talon (talk) 21:58, 17 February 2020 (EST)

Brigade: Quick Interpretation
Seguing from some previous points, one thing I'd mention is that Rob Liefeld's Brigade has always held a special place in my heart - possibly under the heading of "Guilty Pleasures" - especially the introductory four-issue series, which, as mentioned previously, struck me as a total, straight-out-of-the-box, no-guff, no-nonsense, let's-get-right-to-it superhero RPG scenario. The team members had only a modicum of character development over the course of the start-up series, with with John "Battlestone" Stone the only one who could be indicted with a serious charge of having characteristics defined over the course of the conflict the team faced; with the exception of Prince Genocide himself, who was revealed as a self-important coward that covered his weakness with tough talk and fighting to the finish...at least until he was up against an opponent who might actually beat him. Then it was time to cheat, and cheat large.

I would like to get around to statting out the Brigade team - along with, obviously, Invincible and crew, as well as the WildC.A.T.s, CyberForce and Youngblood - but right now, I'll stick with Battlestone, who was a pretty much straight-up Powerhouse-type.

PROWESS: 5

COORDINATION: 4

STRENGTH: 8

INTELLECT: 4

AWARENESS: 4

WILLPOWER: 5

Powers: Invulnerabilty 7

Origin: Birthright

This strike the gang, who might be familiar with the series, as near the mark? Chime in with your own if you so wish.

--Black Talon (talk) 20:44, 26 February 2020 (EST)

Brigade: Quick Interpretation, cont.

One more point, that I should have noted at the beginning: I will add in Extras, Stunts, Qualities and so forth for Battlestone (and probably should for Invincible, as well) after I've had a chance to cross-reference with the IAE book and see what's most appropriate. A four-issue introduction ain't much space to build an entire character on, but what's present will be, hopefully, sufficient.

--Black Talon (talk) 09:24, 28 February 2020 (EST)

"Soon I Will Be Invincible" book/character conversion
Sigh. As usual, just futzing around with various concepts. I had - a number of years ago - proposed on the M&M boards about having a SIWBI sourcebook; this met with some approval, but I do believe that ICONS, out of all the systems I'm familiar with (certainly not all available) would be the one best suited to fit the novel's general set-up and the fact that the story is driven by character study and interaction, not plot. I would, very quickly, assign Doctor Impossible something like the following, as far as raw Abilities and Powers are concerned:

PROWESS: 4

COORDINATION: 5

STRENGTH: 7

INTELLECT: 8 (possibly a 9, but that would be up, I think, to some discussion)

AWARENESS: 4 (being generous)

WILLPOWER: 4 (you've got to give the guy some stick-it-out capability, if nothing else)

Powers: Invulnerability 4 (gunfire, especially high-powered weapons, can hurt and/or inconvenience him, if not kill)

Again, working out Extras, Stunts and Qualities would likely take a bit of research, but certainly doable. Anyone else familiar with this story, and think it would be a good ICONS conversion?

--Black Talon (talk) 15:12, 7 March 2020 (EST)

Products page update
Had a brief look at this - checking on some of the older modules and resources I still want to pick up - and it struck me that the items, as listed, are considerably out of date. There's Origins, Rogues, and ICONS Presents, just to indicate some of the hardcopy works that could be listed, and that's not even considering what new modules and settings, as well as other non-Ad Infinitum work that might be available through DriveThru RPG. Any plans on doing a bit of a clean-up/update on this aspect, just so we've got a clear list as to what's available currently?

--Black Talon (talk) 13:37, 19 March 2020 (EDT)

Well, it's a wiki, so anyone who has both the time and the inclination is welcome to do it! As I'm not currently playing it's been hard to remember even to check in here very often. I think I added a couple of things as they came out, but when we have DriveThru search available, it just didn't seem as important a service to list things here and it might have been originally. And still not sure how many people actually see this.

That said, feel free to update!

--Blue Lightning (talk) 18:36, 25 March 2020 (EDT)

Thank you for providing the notes, Blue Lightning. It may mark me as being a bit weird, but I generally get on to this page a couple of times a day to see if there's been any significant activity; as stated, I have a great liking for this game concept, the game engine, and many of the works released as supplements - Ad Infinitum-copyright or not. Superhero games, as stated previously, have been major hit-and-miss propositions, from my point of view, and the sheer love-of-genre that powered the creation of this game in the first place is something that resonates with me.

Such being stated, I suppose I will take up the chain tied to to the ship's forecastle and drag the thing up out of the water for some dry-dock service. It'll be a while before I can take the time and attention to do so - real-life work and all that - but come Easter or thereabouts, I would like to start revamping the Products page, probably dividing into a) Ad Infinitum books b) third-party publishers c) hardcopy versus pure digital. Yeah, it'll probably take a while - and will likely engage more computer-code-manipulation skill than I can reasonably command at this point - but I'd like to see the site maintaining at least something vaguely resembling current market availability.  So, Blue Lightning, I'll probably be in touch during the next while, attempting to suss out how to make such changes without accessing the NORAD systems and bringing things to an unexpected DefCon 2 - yeah, the Time cover would have me doing the big "Who wouldda thunk it?" shrug with the story headline, "Planetary Disaster Averted When Janitor Pulls Plug" or something like that. Otherwise, hoping that the game is being enjoyed by a growing segment of the population out there, and will be coming back soon.

--Black Talon (talk) 20:40, 25 March 2020 (EDT)

I think the page is long enough as is, and will be longer as you add more "official" products to it, so I'd suggest a separate page for third-party products.

Blue Lightning (talk) 00:49, 31 March 2020 (EDT)

Good point! Dividing up into separate pages in such a fashion would, in fact, present a serious advantage that DriveThru simply doesn't have - being able to make a straight-out choice between looking at Ad Infinitum and other companies' modules/resources could end up saving potential gamers a load of time that would otherwise be spent scrolling through works while going "No...no...no..."

Every day that passes presents more evidence that the person-to-person RPG is something that serves a huge benefit as both social equalizer and potential key-opener for the imagination. Whatever small steps that might be taken to keep Mr. Kenson and Mr. Houser's creation moving on and upward, I'll certainly give my pause for the cause.

--Black Talon (talk) 19:32, 31 March 2020 (EDT)

Have been logged out - cannot log back in.
This is Black Talon. The changes noted on the main page have logged me out; despite attempting to follow the directions indicated, I have been unable to clear the "browser cache", being not quite sure what this is or how to access it. I - and I would imagine several others - would appreciate having a clear, step-by-step guide for the uninitiated as to how to solve this problem. Thank you.

--50.101.192.81 13:42, 13 April 2020 (EDT)

This is Blue Lightning. Apparently the fix of deleting all your cookies is not working for everyone and you've hit on a decent fix for us right now. Adding "This is name" to the beginning of any discussion contributions will do for now, and of course anyone adding a page can put their name on it too. Most of the activity in the last 6 months seems to be discussion right here anyway.

I believe they will eventually get an acceptable fix in but it's only about 48 hours into the problem so I'd say give them time to work it out. It is after all a free service so... 2604:2000:2B8C:AF00:A803:1798:5B3D:C1B 15:31, 13 April 2020 (EDT)

This is Black Talon. Blue Lightning, thank you very much for passing this along; knowing that others are caught in the same La Brea virtual tar-pit gives at least some indication I'm not flat-out stupid. Regarding doing the introductory "I am [Fill in fake superhero name from Marvel movies here]," would certainly do it - we could also just put in our signatures manually at the conclusion of a post, and throw in the time-stamp afterward. In any event, we've certainly got some options available; we'll just have to wait that while - however long that might turn out to be - before we can see our identities at the top-right of the screen on the Main Page again. Once more, Blue Lightning, all thanks for having kept this site going. As a serious ICONS fan, I'd feel a little deprived without this option available, as it seems to be just about the only place for interested and dedicated individuals to throw out opinions, after Green Ronin tossed their ICONS forum into the recycle bin.

Hoping we can get the population logged back in as soon as reasonably possible. All best till then, and hope to see others on soon.

Black Talon --50.101.192.81 22:19, 13 April 2020 (EDT)

Just found another workaround: logged in with another browser, apparently they don't all use the same cookies. So at least with Opera it worked. Blue Lightning (talk) 22:25, 14 April 2020 (EDT)

Very good to know. Just wondering what the procedure was for that - I can make a link here through Google Chrome, but have no idea to enact this cookie-clearing procedure you've mentioned. If a guide could be provided, this would be much appreciated.

Black Talon --50.101.192.81 20:01, 15 April 2020 (EDT)

Deleting all cookies is usually pretty easy and you can google how to do that with your browser. However cookies are very useful for other sites so it's usually quite annoying to clear them all because of a problem on one site because then on all other sites you regulary visit you now have to log in again and they probably will no longer "remember" where you were on those sites last time.

So...

Deleting only specific cookies is ideal, and I just did this on Chrome and it worked for me.

Put chrome://settings/siteData in your location bar

On the page that comes up put miraheze in the search box

Delete all cookies that come up

Try logging on to Miraheze

Let me know if it works. Oh and btw, as mentioned above, simply using another browser might work. I used Opera and logged in fine.

Blue Lightning (talk) 22:43, 15 April 2020 (EDT)

Have followed the procedure listed above; there's still been no results as far as log-in is concerned. I don't know how many others may be in this situation - you, Blue Lightning, have obviously managed to overcome the barrier - but, until Miraheze or some other organization in authority take corrective steps, I'm considering the current circumstance to be pretty much a permanent arrangement. While I'd certainly like to be able to just hit the signature key as an official sign-off rather than doing it manually, I - and, I think, we - will make do with a few detours. Hoping the current situation eases as quickly as reasonably possible and that, if possible, Steven Kenson, Dan Houser et al make it on here for some commentary.

Black Talon --50.101.192.81 17:26, 19 April 2020 (EDT)

Sorry it's still not working for you Black Talon, have you deleted just the miraheze cookies or all cookies? Have you tried using a different browser? (If you do, don't use Opera as I mentioned above, it's not secure anymore I just heard, try Firefox or Vivaldi.) If you can't download another browser have you tried opening an incognito / private / (whatever it may be called on your browser) window and log in with that?

In all of those suggestions above I think you'd first need to close any tab that had miraheze open before you perform the suggestion.

If you happen to have another device on the shelf somewhere, you can try that too.

This is being discussed at at https://meta.miraheze.org/m/4FU and there are some very upset people, but this is a free service and we can't expect perfection for years on end. That said, one reason I chose Miraheze is that they use a standard version of mediawiki (unlike WikiSpaces did) and therefore if I needed to export it and host it elsewhere it wouldn't need the extensive rebuilding I had to do last time.

Blue Lightning (talk) 21:28, 19 April 2020 (EDT)

I hope we haven't lost Black Talon permanently over the login issue! On anyone else for that matter. :-(

Blue Lightning (talk) 14:40, 18 May 2020 (EDT)

Well, not lost permanently - I still check in here on a fairly frequent basis - but I will admit that my interest level has diminished somewhat since the whole You've-been-booted-out-and-at-least-according-to-current-protocols-you're-never-getting-back-in arrangement. Nevertheless, I still do very much want this game to continue expanding, and, when the current horrorshow has been hopefully reduced somewhat, I would like to do a products-release page organized by publishing house. I am very grateful to Miraheze for providing what is an essentially free site, but am also hoping that the day will come where I don't have to type the name in manually, and am still a recognized member of the clique here.

Best,

Black Talon --70.27.137.25 12:46, 25 May 2020 (EDT)

Well please do try downloading a different browser (perhaps Firefox, Vivaldi, but not Opera) if you're up for that. Seems to work.

Blue Lightning (talk) 15:58, 25 May 2020 (EDT)

What other superhero RPGs have you played (or experienced)?
I posted this question on the Hero Games forum (makers of Champions/Hero System) to see what other superhero-themed RPGs people have played.

For me, I first started with Villains & Vigilantes in the early 1980s and then Champions in the late 1980s (and have played it on and off ever since), followed by DC Heroes by Mayfair Games in the early 1990s. Since then, I've owned/read, but never had the chance to run a campaign for Heroes Unlimited (Palladium Books), Silver Age Sentinels (both Tri-Stat and D20), Prowlers & Paragons, Invulnerable, Supers, Supergame, BASH!, Guardians, Truth & Justice, Marvel FASERIP/FASERIP, and one or two other superhero RPGs that I forgot.

At game conventions and charity game events I typically run ICONS and Champions, which give players the options of a rules-light and rules-heavy perspective of the superhero gaming. Most of the players that visit my table for Champions have played it for several years previously, while players showing up for ICONS are typically brand-new players to the RPG genre in general.--Fdw3773 (talk) 07:59, 26 May 2020 (EDT)

'''What other superhero RPGs have you played (or experienced)? Cont.'''

Fwd3773, thank you very much for coming in with a (much appreciated) break from the current subjects under discussion/grieving. I certainly can't claim as varied a background as yourself when it comes to the superhero RPG genre: I as well began with Villains & Vigilantes as soon as it came out (first edition definitely had its charms, but I recall Jack Herman writing an article in one game magazine or another stating that, with regard to their first edition, "We were first-time game designers...and you could tell."), and have held the second edition as the pinnacle to be measured against for all superhero works to come.

We did give Champions its due shot, but, as you've indicated, it's just too damn rules-heavy to appeal to us, and the characters and their drama get lost in the numbers columns. DC Heroes had its go, but here the exponential level of the attribute system again started blowing away the interest for me like pollen in the wind. Mutants & Masterminds is a work I still hold in extremely high regard, although - as was pointed out by individuals on the game forum in years past - the d20 origins made it simply far too complicated, in addition to the game engine possessing some crippling logic gaps that a) were not noticed by the Devs until they were pointed out, and b) due to d20's nature, were virtually impossible to amend/fix without reworking the entire system. Nonetheless, a number of the resource books, including the excellent Lockdown, Freedom City, and Paragons, among others, are books that I can look over and fall into almost as works of fiction themselves, rather than just game resources.

ICONS caught my attention because it seemed, at least to me, to be Mr. Kenson's attempt to leave the tar-pit of d20 rules constriction behind and have something where it was the characters and the game-play, not the numbers, that mattered. Works such as Stark City have also shown that the system can stay with the choose-your-own-adventure style of V&V's generic setting, or work from an established base with predetermined rules, situations and characters.

Anyway, gone on way too long with this, but again, Fwd3773, I appreciate your bringing the subject up. Looking forward very much to Messers Kenson, Houser, et al continuing to put some dreams in front of us as we work through this current unpleasant season.

Best,

Black Talon --70.27.137.25 17:04, 26 May 2020 (EDT)

Long overdue additions
I finally completed some long overdue additions to this fan-site, which are standardized write-ups for an alien invader, dragon, fire demon, and kaiju, which are common tropes in the superhero genre involving overlords and supernatural aligned villains. --Fdw3773 (talk) 19:51, 28 May 2020 (EDT)

Golden Age Greats from Public Domain....WOW!
I haven't visited this forum in a long while but when I saw the list of recently added Golden Age heroes from the public domain I was amazed! I had only heard of a few of them when they had appeared in a FemForce issue or two since AC Comics used to incorporate public domain characters. The majority was new to me and it was wonderful reading about these seemingly forgotten characters from the Golden Age of comics.

Kudos to ICONS therealtony for making this happen and posting them in this forum!!! --Fdw3773 (talk) 14:53, 3 October 2020 (EDT)

Picked up ICONS: Menagerie
Just a quick note - and been way, way too long since I posted something on here, although I have been continuing to check out the site - but I did watch through the piece that Mr. Houser had on Steve Kenson's blog and wanted to see what the finished work looked like. Much anticipating the hardcopy to put in the collection - already have the PDF, although I do much more enjoy having something I can hold in my hands. Looking forward to what the ICONS crew can put together for the coming year.

Black Talon --174.88.240.75 15:06, 7 November 2020 (EST)

Whew!
Boy, that was scary! Clicked on the site and saw the "Closed due to inactivity" banner, and wondered what in the heck was going on - I threw in that bit about picking up ICONS: Menagerie just a couple of days ago.

Hoping it was nothing more than an oversight or miscue by the Miraheze administration; for my part, I'll try to submit a post, at the very least, on a monthly basis so we can avoid this kind of situation again. To Blue Lightning: Presuming it was your intervention that restored matters back to a normalized state - Thank you. My enjoyment of the ICONS system, and desire to see it maintained and expanded, is real and this site is something that allows the community here to communicate in some stable fashion, and hoping that we can continue to see its healthy growth.

Also, finally managed to sign back in (Yay!) so I can at last use that signature thing again.

--Black Talon (talk) 01:26, 17 November 2020 (EST)

Yay for the return of your sign-in ability! No, I didn't fix whatever was going on with the inactivity banner and didn't happen to login in time to see it, but I did see on the Miraheze discord that they were having technical difficulties so I bet that was part of it. OTOH maybe fixing whatever was going wrong also fixed your sign-in trouble.

BTW There is LOTS of activity on the ICONS Facebook page, if anyone here is also there please encourage the many producers of great character writeups to post them here where GMs and other interested parties can look them up easily. This is an archive we can back up, I don't think we have that with Facebook, RPG.net, or any other forum I can think of at the moment where folks are posting their work.

--Blue Lightning (talk) 02:46, 17 November 2020 (EST)

Blue Lightning, thank you for the update. With regard to the ICONS Facebook page, while I'm very gratified that the game has a significant presence in this venue, and that it would be a wonderful lifeblood injection having the characters brought over here, it's something I'm afraid I can do nothing to assist with: I never have been, am not, and probably never will be on Facebook. From the moment the site went into public activity back in '04, I had a gut-level intuition that there was something congenitally wrong about this. Rather than go into details, I'll simply state that my hopes are that the character write-ups you indicate can be transferred over here through some other methodology. Meanwhile, wonderful to see this site back in operation. Looking forward to seeing more community participation in building up site resources.

--Black Talon (talk) 08:17, 18 November 2020 (EST)

I think I already knew you weren't on Facebook, that was just an open call to those who are. And also for wherever else one sees people posting ICONS character writeups and adaptations.

--Blue Lightning (talk) 15:53, 18 November 2020 (EST)

Recent purchases
Just throwing this in pretty much for the sake of keeping the site active, but just wanted to note about having picked up - finally - Hero Pack 4, 5 and the Annual. As always, enjoying looking through the character selection, thinking about who to pick and choose and who to rip off for personally-designed villains/supporting cast.

One final point: I don't know if it's me, but it seems there's been some basic math difficulties when in comes to calculating character Stamina; there are a number of instances that I've seen where Strength 7 and Willpower 4 make Stamina 10, not 11; similarly, Strength 5 and Willpower 6 again giving us Stamina 10, not 11. The character descriptions don't seem to really provide any explanation for the discrepancy, however such a thing might be rationalized.

Otherwise, looking forward to picking up more of the recent-offerings modules; again, if I'm going nuts or math-incompetent here, let me know if you've got the time and the inclination.

Best to all, Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukah, and wonderful holidays to all. Be submitting again soon.

Black Talon --174.88.240.75 16:00, 16 December 2020 (EST)

ICONS patreon announced!
I had a look at Steve Kenson's blog page a couple days ago, and saw that he'd initiated a program for contributors to Ad Infinitum - this will, of course, increase resources to put books/modules together, and also permit the contributors access to some of the ICONS inside works, as well as direct communications with the creative team.

I've signed on and look forward very much to ongoing developments. A link to the patreon site is pasted below:

https://stevekenson.com/2021/01/04/announcing-the-icons-patreon/

Many hopes that this will serve as a push to move ICONS further into a position of superhero RPG attention, and looking forward to the opportunity to holding discussions with Messers Kenson, Houser, and others who continue to build and expand on this game.

--Black Talon (talk) 11:53, 8 January 2021 (EST)

I signed up too, maybe within the first hour. Think I was number 4 or 5.

--Blue Lightning (talk) 23:46, 20 January 2021 (EST)